THRESHOLD CONVERSATIONS

Ami Vitale

AMY: Hey everybody, it’s Amy, and in this episode of Threshold Conversations, I’m so excited to introduce you to another Ami—National Geographic photographer Ami Vitale. But first I just need to acknowledge that this episode is coming out on November 5th, 2020. I’m recording this intro on November 4th, everything is really intense and uncertain in terms of the election. But you and I both know that the environmental issues we examine here on Threshold are going to continue to be important no matter what. If you believe in our work, and want us to keep making this show, we could really use your support right now. Our annual membership drive is happening right now, and all donations through the end of the year will be doubled. We’re aiming to raise $30,000 by the end of year. And our first big milestone in that effort is our goal of reaching $7,000 by the end of the week. If we can get to that $7,000 mark, we’ll get a $3,000 bonus, and we’ll be a third of the way toward our goal. So thank you so much for considering making a donation of whatever size works for your budget. You can check out our progress and make your contribution at thresholdpodcast.org and thank you.

MUSIC

We’re actually kicking off our membership drive with something we’ve never done before. This a recording from the live online event we had with Ami Vitale back in September.

AMI: There is always joy, even in the darkest places. Always. 

AMY: I’ll tell you more about who Ami is and what her work is all about in a moment, but just to set the scene here: picture dozens of people, all on Zoom, tuning in from as far away as Australia. And as Ami and I are talking, we also are looking at some of her photos. We describe the photos as we go....so you don’t need the visuals in order to make sense of what we’re talking about. But Ami has graciously agreed to let us share those photos on our website as well. So after you’ve listened, or while you’re listening, you can go to thresholdpodcast.org and actually see the images we’re referencing, if you want. 

This event was a real team effort, so I want to give a shout-out here at the top to our development director Angela Swatek, marketing and operations director Eva Kalea, outreach coordinator Caysi Simpson, social media storyteller Taliah Farnsworth, producer Nick Mott, and the whole Threshold board for all you did to make this event a success. HUGE, HUGE thanks to everyone who attended this live taping—so many of you had really great questions, and it ended up feeling like we were collaborating in this interview with Ami Vitale, which was just what I was hoping for. OK, here we go...

AMY: Welcome everybody to our first ever live Threshold Conversations event. I'm Amy Martin and I'm joined today by Threshold listeners from all around the country and even the world. Hello listeners!

LISTENERS RESPOND

AMY: Awesome, it’s so good to hear from you all! We have lots of time zones represented here today. And we're so happy about that. We're all making this episode together today live on Zoom and we're going to incorporate some listener questions as we go. My guest today is photojournalist Ami Vitale. Ami is a world renowned photographer. Her list of awards is actually so long that I'm only going to give you a small sampling here. She’s won five World Press Photo awards, and she's been named magazine photographer of the year. InStyle magazine included her in their list of 50 women changing the world in 2019. And she's been named a National Geographic Woman of Impact. Her work has been featured in publications all over the world, including National Geographic and her photograph of the world's last male northern white rhinoceros, which she took on the day of his death, was featured on the cover of National Geographic in October of 2019. We're going to hear the story behind that image today, as well as hearing about Ami's journey into storytelling through images. That journey has put her in close contact with elephants, pandas, giraffes, and the many people working to protect these animals. Ami Vitale, welcome to Threshold Conversations, and thank you so much for being here today. 

AMI V: Thank you so much, Amy. I'm very excited to be here. 

AMY M: It's really, it's really fun to get to share your work with all of the people who are here today, helping us make this episode and with the wider world. You're probably best known for your stunning images of wildlife, but what might be less well known is that you have actually portrayed wildlife onstage. Nick, can you, can you share our first photograph? (laughter) So what we're looking at here now is a picture of a very young Ami Vitale, who's apparently about ready to go do some ballet dancing, dressed as a lion. How old were you when this picture was taken of you, Ami, and where did this fierce lion ballerina live at the time?

AMI V: I think I must've been around five years old and this was in the wilds of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And I think my parents must've known something I didn't. I mean, it's kind of remarkable that, yeah, my last story was actually working up close with lions, but, I don't think they ever really did imagine this would be my life.

AMY M: Well, you're, you're a very, very adorable little lion. And, before we get into your work, I'd just like to know a little bit more about who you are. And, and I often find like to, to figure out who somebody is, it's helpful to know who they were when they were young. So when you think about this little five-year-old, or maybe even somebody, you know, a few years older than that, would she ever have guessed that she was going to become something of a celebrity photojournalist?

AMI V: I'm the least likely person, if you knew me as a child and young woman, because I was painfully shy and awkward, afraid of people, afraid of the world. And I kind of joke when I look at this picture, because I think, you know, maybe my parents were really trying to find ways to give me more courage and, you know, they, they would often, you know, put me in front of the camera and, and were really just trying to find ways to help me engage with the world, but that never really happened until I picked up a camera as a teenager. And I think the camera has been this really incredible tool for my own self empowerment. And, so it's been this journey that the camera really was my passport for this very privileged life, really.

AMY M: Well and before you started doing the wildlife photography that we all know you from now, you actually were a conflict photographer, correct?

AMI V: That's correct. I, I didn't seek out to be that I was very interested in, you know, the stories of humanity. And I also wanted to understand on a deeper level why we had so much conflict and, and what that looked like, and really, much like your work Amy, I wanted to get beyond the headlines and, and really understand in a deeper way why the world is the way that it is.

AMY M: Well, let's go ahead and look at the, at the next slide. This is an image of a burning car. Three men are pushing it. What's going on here? Where were you?

AMI V: This was in Gaza in the year 2000 during the Second Intifada. And this was the kind of work that I began doing in the beginning where I, I don't think I really intended for this path to happen, but somehow I went from being a business, like really business. I worked for a business newspaper covering really businessmen and politicians, taking their portraits. And within three years went from that to covering the horrors of the world, hardcore conflicts on the front lines and, you know, places that you have heard of to places you probably have not heard of. And this was one of the stories that I, I kind of parachuted in and started docenting and I kind of going to the center of the action and bringing back these images that my editors wanted. And I thought that my audience wanted.

AMY M: I'm, I'm curious, what was your approach to working in these conflict zones over, over time? What did you begin to focus on?

AMI V: Well, as I began, I mean, I really learned actually in that, and during the Second Intifada, there was a moment when I was running towards a building that I wanted to cover the scene that was unfolding there. And as I was running the batteries in my camera fell out. And in that moment, when I stopped to pick all of them up, put them back in the camera, a helicopter with a missile, came out of nowhere and vaporized the building I was supposed to be in. And I had this really profound moment where I started to question everything that I was doing and how I was covering these conflicts. And I was doing what I thought was good journalism, which was bringing back the most sensationalistic, violent images, getting close to the action. I thought that's what a good war photographer should do.  And I quickly realized that there were many narratives to any story, to any conflict. And I began to understand that if I was going to do powerful war photography, I needed to stay longer than just a few weeks. And so this is an image from Kashmir, where I ended up living for four years, covering this conflict between India and Pakistan, set in the most beautiful place. You can imagine it's in the Himalayas. And I, I realized that it takes time to tell any story. And so every year I would apply for a grant and much to my delight and horror, I would get it. And I say that jokingly, like, I really did want to get deep into each story, but it was, it was heartbreaking. And I did get deep. And, you know, I watched people I knew, friends, die, and, you know, it became a story I was very, very close to. And then this is an image of soldiers patrolling Dal Lake, it's called Dal Lake. And it was a place that was once meant for honeymoon, honeymooners and lovers and tourist. You can see the little hearts painted on the, on these chicaras these are these gondola-style boats, but they had been taken over by soldiers. That was this place. It was beautiful and heartbreaking at the same time.

AMY M: I would love to ask some more questions about this phase of your life, but, I think I'm gonna move us on only because I have so many other questions I want to ask as well, and I'm sure our audience does too. So how did you make the transition from working in conflict zones into working with wildlife?

AMI V: Well, actually it was in about 2008 and I knew I needed a break. I was really deeply depressed because all I was experiencing was kind of the worst of humanity, the darkest side of humanity, and it took its toll on me. And I told myself I was going to take a break. And in that moment, the Nature Conservancy called me up and asked me to do a project that involved traveling around and really looking at nature around the world and people trying to protect nature. And it was in this moment, this kind of moment to breathe that I began to really see and see the connections and understand that all these stories I had been covering, stories of, you know, violence and war, I realized that they were all connected in some shape with the natural world, and that every story is connected to our resources. And also, you know, you can't talk about people without talking about nature and vice versa. And so I started to shift my work into, you know, telling the story of humanity, but telling it through the lens of nature. And it's led me down this, this path. And I think we'll get into the story. But around the same time, I also met these last northern white rhinos that were alive on the planet. That happened in 2009 when I met them for the first time. And I realized that there are only eight of them alive, all in zoos and that something was out of balance. I started to really look at the stories that I felt had been covered, but we were always leaving a big piece of it out. You know, nature was, was there without people, you know, you'd see all these, these stories and films really that presented the natural world as if nature, as if people, were not a part of the natural world. And that's when I began to find the angle, the stories I wanted to tell where people were very much a part of the nature and, and deeply connected to wildlife. 

AMY M: Yeah. Well, I do want to hear more about the rhino story, but, I think before we get into that, let's look at the next slide and let's hear about these guys and gals. So for our listening audience, we're looking at one of Ami’s just stunning photos of a panda who's looking right back at you and where, where were you and how did you get involved with this panda project?

AMY V: This is a story, this was a journey for me. I had like most people on the planet. I feel like most people do know what a panda looks like. They have been turned into almost these clownish cartoon characters. They're everywhere. We see them as stuffed animals. We see them in cartoons, you know, Kung Fu Panda. Pandas are ubiquitous. And when I began this story, like everybody, I imagine them as these cute, adorable creatures. And we're looking at a picture of a panda who, this picture took me a long time to make, because it is on top of a mountain in the thick, you know, kind of bamboo forest. And this panda has walked out of the mist and then kind of done this panda pose. This she almost, I mean, can you say she looks like a sexy panda?

AMY M: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. She got a little sass in her right there.

AMI V: (laughter) She is a sassy bear. She was very, very, elusive and all the pandas were, and that's what surprised me about this story. The more I learned, the more I read, I mean, I read everything you could read about panda bears and what I discovered blew my mind. Pandas have been on the planet for millions of years, but, but what is so shocking about it is that they've only been discovered to humanity very recently in, you know, in, in the story of the world. You know, you can look at ancient Chinese art from thousands of years ago, and you will see representations of every other kind of animal, other bears, even representations of bamboo, but never of the panda. And I couldn't believe it. Pandas, they were shy and quiet and they hid in these thick bamboo forests. They basically evolved, you know, like a lot of bears, they were predators and how to diet of, you know, they were carnivorous and ate prey, but they evolved their diet. So they didn't have to compete with other, other big predators. And they changed their diet to a diet of almost exclusively bamboo. 

AMY M: Wow.

AMI V: Yeah, it's amazing. What that meant was that they. So many things happened. So for example, the reason they're black and white scientists have now come to, to agree on is because, because they eat a diet of bamboo, it means that they are not like other bears where they hibernate in the winter. They have to eat a lot of bamboo to make up the calories and they don't hibernate. And so scientists think that it allows, the black and white pattern is so that they can hide in snow because they have to stay awake in the winter and also hide out in forest in the summertime. And the more I learned about this bear, they just became...so...I mean, they're solitary creatures. They just want to hide away from other pandas. They come together in this short, tiny window to breed and then they go off and are solitary again. And they, they're just this really beautiful creature that I felt like we have changed the way we perceive them, because they are so adorable. And we're used to kind of seeing them in these, you know, tumbling around with other little babies. But if you found them in the wild, that's not actually what you would find.

AMY M: Well, let's look at the next slide. This is an image of a person in a pretty dirty panda suit, holding a baby panda in their arms. And, what's going on here? What is the story of why humans need to be interacting with pandas in this way and, and what's happening in this image?

AMI V: Okay. So this is, I'll try to condense this, but it's an amazing story because you know, the Chinese realized that pandas were threatened and that they are endangered. And so they wanted to first breed enough of them in captivity in the event that they became extinct in the wild, that they would be able to have enough genetic diversity in captivity to keep them alive. And, and so the magic number was 300. They wanted 300 pandas in captivity, so that for the next hundred years, they could figure out what to do and how to keep them going. And, and then they cracked the breeding code. I mean, it was actually a bit of a struggle in the beginning. How do you even learn to, to breed them? And they did not have much success for the first two decades, but then they figured out that important thing, which is pandas only come together between 24 and 72 hours in a year to breed. And that was a major kind of discovery. And then once they did that, and now they have, I think over 500 pandas in captivity, but they realized like we, that's not enough to have them in captivity. We actually want to rewild them and create more habitat for them. So they have this very elaborate reforestation project right now where they're connecting panda corridors and also reforesting new panda habitat. And then they wanted to take pandas from captivity and put them back to the wild to create, again, it's all about diversity in the genetics. But this is a really rare moment, the pandas that get chosen to be, rewild it. There's virtually no contact with humans, and this is kind of a really rare moment where they were picking up a baby panda that has been chosen to be sent back to the wild and they just wanted to weigh it and take some, you know, just make sure that it was healthy. So the head of the panda program is affectionately called Papa Panda. 

AMY M: I love that. 

AMI V: I know I love that too. Papa Panda decided that pandas should never be comfortable around human beings. And so there's very, very little interaction with humans. And when they're interacting with human, this is one of the keepers. They should be in a panda costume. So they don't associate the interaction as an interaction with a human being. And the other important piece of this picture is that these are costumes that these guys have to wear these costumes every day and they get dirty. And the other piece of it is that they are scented with panda feces and urine because pandas go by scent not sight. And so the idea was to mask these costumes, mask our human scent with the scent of a panda.

AMY M: Lovely. And let's go onto the next slide because I think maybe we get to have a sense of, if I remember correctly, you, yeah, this has gotta be you, right?

AMI V: This is me.

AMY M: And you're sitting inside a panda urine-and-feces-soaked costume at this moment?

AMI V: Yeah. I felt like I was in a Wes Anderson film. 

AMY M: (laughter)

AMI V: If you can imagine, it wasn't just me. It was the scientist, it was the caretakers. , and we would all have to dress up in these panda costumes and that, you know, were scented and I just looked around and would just have to laugh. It, it all became perfectly normal and my favorite moment was seeing a bunch of the caretakers, you know, they took the, like the mask off. And they would be smoking their cigarettes in these panda costes. And I was like, this is hilarious.

AMY M: (laughter) Smoking pandas.

AMI V: Yeah. But it was just, you know, the, the lengths we went to and I mean, I really began to forget what the scents were, you just kind of got used to it. It was like, okay, get dressed for the, you know, your job. 

AMY M: Wow

AMI V: And I read so much and I spent all day long just in a costume, looking at these pandas, observing their behavior, that you literally started to feel like you were, you know, a panda, if that's possible. I mean, it was just the most...you know, Papa Panda actually said, if you look at a baby, all curled up in a ball, they reminded him of the ying and yang symbol and they are this kind of symbol of peace in a lot of ways. And there was one panda bear that she just, she would always kind of hide and I was just like trying to find these moments to get any kind of behavior. And this one bear, it was only in my last moments where I was like, I'm leaving forever. I had spent three years making multiple trips going back and forth to China trying to make images. And she, in all the three years would never kind of come out and show me herself. And in these last moments, I kind of was sad and I was leaving and it was very funny because she had just had a new baby and she picked the baby up, put it in her mouth and literally stepped and walked right in front of me. Picked the baby up, held it up in her paws and held it into the air and then put the baby back on the ground and then put it back in her mouth and then ambled back to her hiding spot. And that was it. And I just felt like, “ahhhh.” I was crying like a baby because it was just so, you know, I just felt so lucky to have been in their presence for this amount of time. And I felt like it was our goodbye, our last goodbye and beautiful. It was beautiful. And then the driver came and said, it's time to go. You have to go, I have to take you to the airport. And I was like, weeping. Okay. Goodbye bears.

MUSIC

AMY M: We’ll be back with more from this live event with photographer Ami Vitale right after this.

BREAK

AURICLE PROMO: Dan Carreno, membership drive

SPONSORSHIP: Clearwater Credit Union

SPONSORSHIP: Humanities Montana

AMY M: Welcome back to Threshold Conversations, I’m Amy Martin, and my guest for this live event, held in September of 2020, is photojournalist Ami Vitale. After years of reporting from war zones in the first part of her career, Ami has transitioned to documenting extraordinary relationships between humans and animals. And the species primarily responsible for causing that shift in her focus was the rhinoceros. In 2009, Ami happened to meet some of the world’s last northern white rhinos at a zoo in the Czech Republic who were about to be transported to Kenya in an attempt to return them to their natural habitat and save the species from extinction. She became fascinated with the rhinos’ journey, and following their story changed the course of her life. As we rejoin the live conversation, the image we’re looking at is of rhino-keeper John Kamara holding a rainbow-colored umbrella over the head of a baby rhino named Kilifi. And the rhino seems to be leaning in for a kiss.

AMI V: Kamara is on the right, and Kilifi is on the left. And it's a rhino that he raised from when it was one day old and had been abandoned. And, and I knew that I, I, I knew that there were these hopeful stories that needed to be told. And I just want to talk about this journey about the rhinos. So I, I mentioned earlier that I had met these last northern white rhinos that were being shot, you know, flown back from a zoo in the Czech Republic to Africa and the last, you know, as a last ditch effort to save the whole species. And I started researching this story very deeply and real, you know, wanting to know, well, what was happening well, rhinos were being poached literally to extinction. And then, you know, my mind went to, well, what do we do about it? And then I, I really started researching and figured out pretty quickly that, you know, for the most part, the story was told in this narrative that we need to militarize and kill all the poachers. And one important piece of the story was always being left out. And that was the indigenous people living with the wildlife. And I just started asking the question, well, what do they think about it? And it turns out there's these amazing people like Kamara who commit their entire lives to protecting these animals. They spend more time with these creatures than they do their own families and their own children and risk their lives to protect them. And I just thought, why aren't we telling their stories too? And I spent so much time with, with Kamara and, and the other keepers there, who, these are orphaned black rhinos, another species. But, you know, I believe that these stories also matter and that the indigenous people protecting wildlife are the key to saving what's left. And I think it's important to highlight their stories. And this was just this beautiful moment when I was walking with Kamara and this baby black rhino. And it started to rain and Kamara whips open this umbrella that is in the colors of a rainbow. And I was like, I mean, you cannot imagine a more beautiful scene. And all these stories, these are just stories of hope around the world that I really want to amplify their voices because, gosh, if you could know these men and women that commit their lives, they're incredible. And I feel like that's the answer. Like, why don't we, why don't we tell more of their stories and, and also, you know, help them sustain them because they are the path to a better way forward, I believe.

AMY M: Hmm. What, what is it like, what are rhinos like just as creatures and what is it like to be around them? That's an experience most of us have not had.

AMI V: The amazing thing is rhinos and pandas have so much in common to me. They are really, they just are creatures that want to be left alone. They're very solitary, you know, in the wild you will find them either alone or with their babies. And the other thing is even when they, when they communicate, they have this high pitch squeak, that sounds very similar. A panda and a rhino. I mean, I know a panda and a rhino would never communicate, but they sound, to a human ear, they have this just like, like just *squeal*  this really amazing kind of squeak really. And that's what they sound like. And then their habits are kind of similar, but they are, you know, really gentle, I think in a lot of ways, like they just want to be left alone. And if you leave them alone and respect them and respect their territory in the wild, they don't want to harm you.

AMY M: And why are they endangered?

AMI V: They're endangered because the value of their horn is worth more than gold, I believe. And, because a lot of people believe they have the, the horn is medicinal. And so there's been this just explosion of demand. And so people will pay great sums of money to have rhino horn and they use it for medicine and also as a status symbol. And the truth is rhino horn is simply keratin. It's just compressed hair. It is the same material in our fingernails and our hair. That's it.

AMY M: So just in case anyone still has any questions about this? Rhino horn actually has no medicinal function scientifically, but the pursuit of them, has, has put them into a really scary place, I guess, that maybe that leads us to the Ol Pejeta Conservancy. Can you tell us, they're in Kenya, correct?

AMI V: Yes. Ol Pajeta is where the last, they, it's an amazing place. I encourage anybody if they have the means to go and visit, or at least share their stories because they have the largest black rhino population in East Africa, and they also have the last two northern white rhinos, and they also have incredible, you know, tons of other species there from giraffe, elephants, chimps. It's an, it's an incredible place. It's in Northern Kenya, as you said in Laikipia. And, you know, I just feel like some of the stories happening there and so many other conservancies all around the world, you know, I feel like if you're going to travel, do a little homework and research and find out which places are, you know, putting those tourism dollars back into the communities that surround these places and live there, because it gives people living there, you know, reason to protect the wildlife when they have, you know, when they see the benefits of tourism. So, I think it's more important than ever to keep supporting in whatever ways you can. Some of these conservancies that are really deeply engaged with the local communities.

AMY M: Yeah. Well, let's look at the next slide. You ended up bearing witness to one of the saddest stories that, that we really can imagine, and that we're living through it at really unprecedented rates right now, a story of extinction. This is Joseph Wachira. He was one of the, he is one of the keepers at Ol Pejeta Conservancy, and he's saying goodbye to Sudan. And can you tell us Amy, who, who was Sudan and what was this moment like for you?

AMI V: Sudan was the last male northern white rhino. They call him the last bachelor and, you know, I think that he actually had a beautiful life when you look at it in a lot of ways, because he raised a lot of awareness. People began to understand that it's not just for rhinos, but it's for a whole host of species that we are in the sixth mass extinction right now, which is different from all the other extinctions before this in that it is purely human driven. And I got a call from my friends at Ol Pejeta. They told me to hurry to come back because Sudan was about to die. And so I, I got there and it was, you know, I mean I couldn't even talk about it for a long time without breaking down and crying because it was so heartbreaking. I think what this image represents to me, this moment represented, is that this is what we have reduced, not just the northern white rhino, but so many other creatures too, you know, we, the future is right here in our hands. We get to decide the fate. You know, we can be the best of humanity or the worst, the very worst of humanity. And to me, Joe Joe, who's, you know, resting his head into Sudan’s head, Joe Joe is the best of humanity. He really commits his life to protecting these animals. And it's also like the worst of humanity because you look at it like this is it. What are we going to do? The path is up to us and, and this moment was so quiet. That's the thing that really stuck out. I mean, nature is very noisy. Every time I go there, there's always birds, chirping and nature is not totally quiet, but on this day it was so quiet. All you could hear was the rain and the quiet muffled sobs of the keepers who loved him. And, you know, I just hope that this is our reminder that we, our future as human beings is intricately connected to all wildlife, to the natural world. We are not separate from it and we can't control it. And that until we start to understand this very important reality that, you know, we are, we're one in the same, we're linked to all of these species.

AMY M: On a personal level, how do you manage your emotions while you're also practicing your craft in a moment like this, you have to be thinking about your light meter and the framing and all of these technical things to get this beautiful image. This was the image that was on the cover of National Geographic, by the way and that was chosen as Best Photograph of the Decade by National Geographic readers. And at the same time, this is a highly emotional experience for you just as a human. So how do you manage all that simultaneously? 

AMI V

Well, you know, this, it's less about the technical for me. In terms of this moment, it was all about the relationships. The reason I was there was because I had known the people, the creatures for 10 years, and they trusted me and they actually didn't want me to document this moment. And I just said to them, you know, let me do it. And we will decide later, let's, let's not, you know, they, it was so painful for everybody and everybody was managing their deep grief, including me. And, and so I think that it's, it's all about our relationships. And in the moment it was like less technical. I wasn't, you know, putting lights up, my goal was to be invisible and to be respectful and to be quiet. And, and I was just like everybody there, holding back my sobs and my tears were there, and I just wanted to document this. I actually, the interesting thing is I only took two frames of this moment, just two frames.

AMY M: That’s amazing, wow. And one of them was this one.

AMI V: So when they decided to put it on the cover, they're like, do you have a vertical image? And I was like, oh my god, I don't.

AMY M: You were trying to be fully present instead. 

AMI V: I was trying to be invisible. And, I, I really, yeah, I just tread very lightly. I would do it differently. I would have shot a vertical now, I would have taken more frames. But I just yeah. Was very aware. There was a lot going on. There were a lot of keepers there, the vets were there, the scientists, like everybody was there and I didn't want to get in the way of anybody. Their job was more important than mine. 

AMY M: Well, I think it’s time to open it up for questions, and I know we’ve got several in the queue. Dawn let's start with you.

DAWN: Hi, thanks so much for all of this, the question that I have is just around the transition that you made between the different kinds of, of focus in, in your work. And you talked about experiencing a deep depression when you were covering, you know, years of violence and atrocities in the world. And I think that that kind of work can make us lose hope in humanity sometimes. And I'm wondering how the transition to this work that you're doing with, with nature and the natural world and the relationship with the natural world and the human world, kind of what role that played in, in your recovery from that depression. And if you notice that it comes out in your work?

AMI V: Wow, that's a beautiful question. Well I think in all of my work, you may see that they're always, they're not these, they're not all joyful images, which I think a lot of people kind of on the surface can, make a mistake and just see the joy. But I see everything intricately connected. There is always joy, even in the darkest places. Always. And that was something I really fought to get into media when I was covering even conflicts and the atrocities, because I always saw the most incredible people. I met the best human beings I will ever meet in my life, in those dark places, who are resilient, who were fighting the good fight, who never gave up. You know, not just in the conflict, but also when it comes to conservation stories and wildlife stories that, never give up, that there is always hope. And that there is always the most remarkable people who often don't get their voices heard. And that's what I'm seeking out. I'm looking for those beautiful voices that remind us, never give up. There is always a way forward and that we have more in common with each other than we often recognize. I actually think we have too much noise that focuses on the negative. You know, I'm not Pollyanna here and I don't just gloss over things. I talk about the challenges we have, but I also definitely talk about the beauty and the resiliency and that we can figure this out. Humans are smart. We can find a way if we kind of come together a little bit more and truly listen to one another.

AMY M: I'm going to take another question in just a second, but that seems like such a great segue for, something happening kind of a postscript or a next chapter with the rhino story. So can you bring us up to date? I know you were just in Kenya and there's some really exciting things happening with this story.

AMI V: It is the most beautiful twist of fate. The story that I began now, 11 years ago, where I thought that I was on this tragic path of documenting extinction has an, a beautiful next phase, which is the BioRescue Project. And, and it is a group of scientists and conservationists and vets and people from all over the world. It's an international consortium. There's Germans and Czechs and Kenyans and Japanese, and, you know, people coming together to try to bring the species back from extinction using science. And so they're on this race right now to create embryos, viable embryos, from the last two northern white female rhinos using the frozen DNA, and now they're going to use in IVF and a southern white rhino who'll be, you know, the, the host of this baby and, and they believe that they have enough genetic diversity from the DNA that they've, they've saved to, to save the species from extinction. And I just want to add another hopeful story, which is the southern white rhino actually went through the same bottleneck; they are now, there are over 20,000 southern white rhinos roaming the planet, and there was a time when there were less than I think, 40 or 50 of them. So they, they also went through a bottleneck of almost facing extinction and this science is amazing because the science will be able to be used on other species as well. And I will just do a little shout out if anybody is interested in supporting the BioRescue project. It is such an important project for, for not just this species, but so many other creatures and they, they need our support now, too.

AMY M: You can find them at BioRescue.org. Back to questions from the audience..so my Threshold teammates are helping to facilitate here. Eva, who’s next?

EVA: Our next question is from Stephan and I believe that Taliah is reading this question. 

TALIAH: Yes, indeed. So Amy, this question from Stephan is all about, what's a human and wildlife interaction that's on your photography bucket list? Something you've never gotten to capture before that you really, really want to. 

AMI V: I actually want to go next and just start thinking about the quieter, the, the unseen. You know, I've had this fortune of, you know, telling all these stories of very charismatic species, but all of nature needs our help right now. And I'm going for the quieter unseen. And I'm, you know, I've been reading this book and I just want to give a shout out to the Hidden Life of Trees. I love this book and I, I listened to it actually all the time, because there's so much to learn from even, you know, what's happening between trees communicating with one another, and it's the same thing with wildlife. But I don't have a bucket list really. I'm actually all about slowing down and really listening to kind of the, the, the animals and even, you know, just microscopic. So I, yeah, I'm really interested right now in, in the, this may not be what you want to hear. I'm so sorry, but the whole ecosystem and how all the pieces fit together and maybe the less charismatic species need our help. 

AMI M: That's what I want to hear. I love that. It's interesting and, and feels exactly right. Was there another question in the queue? 

EVA: Yes. We have a question from Justin Sloan. Justin, you can go ahead and unmute yourself and ask your question.

JUSTIN: Thank you. Thank you very much for making the time for us today. My question is what percentage of your images do you stage or prepare versus take candidly? And if you could touch a little bit on your preference.

AMI V: Oh, that's a great question. No, my, I'm actually a terrible photographer. I take so much time to just wait and observe. And, I, the only thing that I will, you know, stage is sort of portraits. So for example, one portrait of Papa Panda, with all the babies was something that we definitely planned for, but particularly with these animals and people, I don't tell them to do anything. And, you know, even it's just sort of waiting for the magic to happen. And even that earlier picture of Kamara and Kalife with the umbrella, I, I actually knew that I wanted to be there in the rainy season, I didn't, I had no idea he had this gorgeous rainbow colored umbrella, but I, I just knew that I wanted to show the hardship that they went through and that they're out there in pouring rain. And then it just happened that he had this gorgeous umbrella and then he had such a profound relationship. He was actually sitting there in the rain and then, Kalife was like, got a little bit too far away from Kamara, and literally came running back to him squealing and, and Kamara was sitting there in the rain, and he gave him this like kiss, kind of reached in to smell him. And, you know, those moments, you can't create those. And I actually can sniff out when things have been manipulated and orchestrated, and I feel like the most authentic moments that really show an animal or a person's character, you can't tell them to do that. So my big secret is just going back again and again and again, and often, where you, you know, just wait for those, those moments to happen. You can't plan for them. 

AMY M: That's lovely. I think it's great to just to hear your questions. Is there another question in the queue? 

EVA: There are, yeah, there are a few more questions the next one is from Joe Loviska. Joe, go ahead and unmute yourself and ask your question.

JOE: Thanks, Amy. I hear so much depth and experience in your voice, and you may have already answered this in your stories, but I'm curious, what's your most cherished wisdom that you've learned from the animals that you've photographed?

AMI V: Oh, they teach me every time and I think it's, one to have more empathy for each other, both humans and wildlife. And I just think that we all need to be better listeners. And even, you know, I've noticed in all of the animal world, they may be, you know, even when you're in a herd of horses or a herd of elephants or even, you know, cats, like they will create their boundaries with one another, but they are not vicious. And they like, there is this just amazing knowledge that they have that we could all learn from, frankly. And I think it just comes back to these questions of listening, empathy and boundaries. Boundaries are okay. But I think that we have a lot to learn from the animal world. I really do.

AMY M: Not only are boundaries okay, but maybe that's how you get so much empathy as if you, you have those good boundaries.

AMI V: Yeah, they’re so connected.

AMY M

Yeah. We're coming up on the end of our time together, but I know that there are several more questions in the queue, Eva, I'm going to give you the horrible job of choosing our last question, and then I'll ask one to fully wrap up.

EVA

All right. So our last question will be from Mark Heinzman.

MARK: Hello, Amy's: Martin and Vitale, both. Ami Vitale, I'm curious if you could talk about your thoughts about how, at least from the American perspective, I think we oftentimes see these “wildlife under threat situations” happening somewhere else, in a different country, far away, whether it's Africa or part of Africa or in China, or somewhere entirely different. But of course, here in the United States, there are plenty of species that are under threat, plenty of wild places that are under threat. And so just in terms of how to tell the stories to the hometown audience, to understand that this is a situation that is happening all around the world and that we have just as big of a problem with it here in our own backyard as the rest of the world does.

AMI V: Oh my gosh, Mark. I am so glad you brought that up. And that's where I'm focusing my energies next as well. I just happened to kind of go down this, you know, the rhinos brought me to Kenya and then I was finding all these amazing things, but I didn't go there for the exotic. I was actually trying to find the things that connect us and demystify it and humanize it and make people feel like, gosh, this is the same story happening in my backyard, but you are absolutely right. And you said it perfectly and really grace, beautifully. I, I just will echo and repeat what you're saying. Yes, for all the journalists out there, there are so many stories right there in your backyard. And I really encourage people to tell stories in their backyard, for so many reasons, because one, they take time to do well. They take time to get to know all the voices and, and even to understand the behavior of the wildlife, you need a large amount of your life to be committed to that one story. So, and we desperately need those stories told in a meaningful way. 

AMY: Yeah. You know, one of the things that, that you touched on before Ami is that the, the, the polarity that gets represented in your, in your investigations. Because of course you wouldn't be needing to document how to rewild pandas or how we might be able to preserve the last rhinos if, if we, as a species weren't doing so much damage. And yet you see people in all these different continents, different cultures, just going to extraordinary lengths, taking personal risks, to, to keep these animals alive. And I just wonder, how do you make sense of that? How do you sit with the fact that we, as a species can do things that we know we don't really see other species giving decades of their life to preserve, preserve one another. And nor do we see other species just being so wantonly, destructive, and, and just so unbelievably, horrible to each other. And I can't make that all fit into one story that makes any sort of sense. And I wonder how you live with that, because you're just like your work is right at that intersection.

AMI V: But I feel like that's every... I feel like it's what we choose to...oh gosh, there's so many ways to answer this. We all have the capacity for greatness in, and also all have the same capacity for, you know, really evil.I just think it's what... I think we're actually seeing it in this country right now, like we are being ripped apart. And it's because our differences are being exploited and highlighted. And, it's the same story everywhere really, and it's what we choose to believe, you know? And, and where I, yeah, it's a hard question you're asking, but I just think humans are, we're so complex. And we're capable of, you know, I think we are capable of changing the trajectory we're on. We just have to believe it. And I believe that storytelling is so important. Stories become our reality. They become our truth, you know, both on a very personal level and as a society. And so as storytellers, it is up to us right now to choose what to focus on and make it, you know, like we can turn the ship around. We are in this shared little life raft and we've poked some holes in it, but like, let's find the stories we're gonna make our reality. And I don't know, I believe I'm very hopeful actually at the end of the day, after everything I've seen, I do believe in the best of humanity. And I think that, we're going through this very dark moment right now, and it's important maybe to look at it and, and then to choose a different way forward. How would you answer your own question, Amy? Can I ask you that? 

AMY M: I don't know if I could answer it any better than you just did Ami. And, I feel like that that's really a wonderful way to, to end this conversation, so I think I'm going to punt on that one and say, you, you did it, you did it as best as I could have done it. Everyone, can we please give a big round of applause to Ami Vitale for her time here today? Thank you so much, Ami.

APPLAUSE

NICK: This episode of Threshold Conversations was funded by the Park Foundation, Montana Public Radio, the Society of Environmental Journalists, and the International Women’s Media Foundation’s Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists. We’re also funded by contributions from our listeners. Join our community at thresholdpodcast.org/donate.

EXTERNAL PROMO: The Wild

AMY: I want to tell you about another podcast that will take you on adventures all over the planet - The Wild with Chris Morgan. The Wild takes listeners across the Pacific Northwest and around the world to explore wildlife, their ecosystems and the colorful human characters who know these places and species best. You get to immerse yourself into the wild and discover the surprising connections we have with wildlife, and get a better understanding of the world we share. Listen to The Wild with Chris Morgan wherever you get your podcasts.

AMY: The team here at Threshold includes Nick Mott, Caysi Simpson, Angela Swatek, Taliah Farnsworth and Eva Kalea, with help from Caroline Kurtz, Dan Carreno, Hana Carey, Kara Cromwell, Katie DeFusco and Matt Herlihy. Our music is by Travis Yost. And speaking of Travis—he’s gonna be our special guest at an online event on Thursday, November 19. Join us to learn more about who Travis is, the music he makes for Threshold, and how we think about scoring the podcast. It’s a free event with a suggested donation of $15. And again it’s Thursday, November 19th. All the details are at thresholdpodcast.org.